Pomógł: 7 razy Dołączył: 09 Lut 2010 Posty: 4262 Skąd: Galaktyka Kurvix
#4 Wysłany: 2012-02-05, 08:57
Tomirro, nie kupiłbym tego zegarka na podstawie zdjęć. PO jest cholernie chętnie podrabiana i niestety poziom podrób jest bardzo wysoki. TU jest świetny tekst ale jak zauważysz konieczne jest dokładne własnoręczne obmacanie zegarka. Moim zdaniem to loteria.
A oto cytata dla nieklikatych z zapodanego powyżej linku
Cytat:
Re: Identify a fake Omega Planet Ocean
By:Daniel Benjamin <DanielJBenjamin@Hotmail.com>
Date: 3/16/09 00:02 GMT
In Response To: Identify a fake Omega Planet Ocean (Willy)
: I wanted to see if there are specific
: markings or elements I should look for when inspecting this
: watch in order to determine its authenticity.
Wow... lots of humor but nobody even suggested any ways to tell the original from the fake? I'm no expert, but I'll share the quick tests that made me feel confident to buy my third seamaster second-hand, and know that I'm getting the genuine article.
First off, let me say that the Planet Ocean (judging from the 'for sale' postings, spam, 'REPLICA' ads to which I've been subjected to recently), like the perennial favorite -- the Rolex Submariner -- is now one of the most counterfeited watches out there, so that's a red flag from the beginning; I see them all over, usually fakes by admission, sometimes not.
Now, some of this may be less useful to the novice, who has never really had the opportunity to handle the real deal for any length of time. Keep in mind that all of these are very basic tests, and all are NEGATIVE tests... they can tell affirmatively that a watch is a forgery, but won't tell you definitively that a watch is genuine. But, with a little know-how and ingenuity, you can whittle it down to all but the best fakes and Frankenwatches.
1. It should be shockingly heavy... far and away a hunk of metal like no cheap watch you've ever worn.
2. The crystal should be absolutely perfect and flawless... or darn close. Saphire is nigh-unscratchable, so a modern luxury watch should not show any wear to the crystal. If so, the owner should probably recall the incident with horror. A 'banged up' crystal is probably not saphire and thus the watch probably not genuine, unless the watch has suffered EXTREME abuse, in which case, run.
3. Set the watch crystal-down on a smooth surface, and gather the bracelet up on top of the caseback... give it a spin. The watch should spin like a top on the domed crystal... for a long time, due to it's weight and the tiny contact point. If it doesn't spin at all, it's a flat-ground crystal, and not a genuine Omega. An experienced eye can spot the difference in the reflection from the domed crystal, but it's not a skill for the novice.
4. Smear the crystal with water. The density, surface tension, and extremely fine smoothness of the saphire will cause the water to draw together quickly into a single mass (it's actually rather neat to watch), whereas it will stay completely diffused on a plastic crystal, and more or less completely diffused on a lower-quality mineral glass crystal. I've tried this with a number of watches with consistent results. The effect on a genuine saphire crystal seems almost magical.
5. Check the quality of the bracelet construction; The bracelet links should be machined out of solid steel, finished perfectly, with the edge of the bracelet polished to a mirror shine; They should NOT be made out of rolled steel or aluminum, or appear to have been layered and pressed; Many manufacturers hide this cheaper construction by peening/buffing the edges of the links to make them appear solid (For example, Fossil). Others, even moderately priced watches ($150+) use solid links very similar (though far less substantial) to the Rolex Oyster (Ex: Swiss Army), but most fakes are BAD fakes, and won't even bother with that. Modern luxury watches should use Solid end links (SEL) in the bracelet -- although there are a lot of better fakes out there with solid end links (the bracelet end link that contacts the case and through which the spring pins pass) -- it should be machined out of a solid piece of steel. Cheaper watches, including non-luxury types, and bad fakes of all kinds will have rolled and formed, completely hollow end links. This obviously doesn't apply to vintage watches, as even Rolex used these 'way back when,' but generally all modern luxury 'tool' watches (Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Tag Heuer) use solid end links.
6. Check for general wear. Luxury watches are made of sterner stuff than cheaper watches (including imitations); Wear in the bracelet should be VERY light and slight. This is very subjective and highly dependent on the age and amount of use the watch has endured. Generally speaking, a modern luxury watch, even with daily wear should look FANTASTIC for it's age... nearly new.
7. Dial, Printing & Engraving
A. This may be subjective, and you may need to be familiar with the genuine article to spot this, but quality can't be faked. A $4000+ wristwatch with a chronometer grade movement will have the same intense and unwavering attention to detail that one would expect in this range. And that means total perfection. Invest $3 in a 30x-magnifying jeweler's loupe, and scrutinize every detail of the dial, from indices, to patterns, to hands, certifications, trademarks, signatures: In the $3500+ range, every feature will display total crispness and absolute perfection and clarity, even at 30x magnification, AND even as applied over the wave pattern on a Seamaster dial. There should absolutely not be any trace of smeared ink, fuzzy edges to fonts, wavy borders to shaded areas, even on the miniscule 'SWISS MADE', and no included dust or other particles on the dial. Any of these displays an inattention to quality control that would horrify the quality control inspector of a fine swiss watch company.
B. The same applies to the caseback engraving (Hippocampus logo, Signatures, boasts of being the 'first and only watch...'); On a high-end watch, it will be crisp, perfect, and accurate, owing to the processes and quality controls used, usually machining or high-pressure stamping, whereas casting or lesser-quality stamping yields lower resolution, sloppier results. This is harder to tell without understanding the processes involved and their differing results. Suffice it to say that a fake Hippocampus or other relief caseback detail has a cheap and under-finished look to it.
8. Consistency in fonts and indices - It's well known that lots and lots of fakes still use old, plentiful counterfeit Rolex fonts on their date wheels, so a quick look at the '4', '6' or '9' can spot a cheap copy. Omega's fonts are quite different and unique. Also, Rolex-fonted, styled and indexed bezel inserts and Rolex styled applied indices are super-common in low-end fakes and counterfeits. This might not be the case for watches designed from the ground up to be accurate 'REPLICAs.'
9. The movement -- Even without opening the watch (which even I have not worked up the nerve to do yet), there are some things that you can tell about the movement inside. The quality and precision fit of the movement's functioning will set it apart.
A. First, look at the date window -- it should appear to mate flushly with the back side of the dial, without any gap, space, or clearance. The same for the dial -- it should be precisely fitted, flush and tight to the interior diameter of the case.
B. Unscrew the crown... when it clears the last thread, it should pop out solidly to the first position... with some force; These movements are far more sturdy and robust and than imitations, and the spring action should feel firm and solid when pressed in. Wind the watch, and even wiggle the crown ever so gently and apply sideways leverage. In a cheap Japanese watch (like an Invicta Pro Diver 'Submariner Clone' that I own), the movement and dial are so loosely fitted in the case that winding or setting the watch (or levering the crown) causes the dial to wiggle and twist a few degrees against the direction I turn it. That indicates a huge lack of precision that won't be found on high-end watches.
C. Set the time; The movement should be smooth and slick, without much play at all, and should not feel sloppy (or have the gritty feel of a cheaper watch). It should feel solid and smooth, not tight and stubborn (bad fake), or super-loose (bad fake), and SILENT, except when winding or when clicks are indicated.
D. Set the date -- this is a great way to tell a fine swiss movement from a cheap Japanese or chinese movement. In the second crown position, the date should snap crisply, smartly, and satisfyingly into precisely the correct place, centered in the date window; It should not slowly, smoothly and lazily roll into the window, and should never be at an odd or variable alignment, or require you to wind and wind to winch the next date into the window. A Seamaster date (using the quick-change feature - crown position 2) will roll quickly and firmly almost into position, and then snap crisply and audibly into the correct alignment -- you only have to do 80% of the work. Alternately, rotate the hands past midnight, VERY SLOWLY, and watch how the date changes; On a cheap movement, the date will take a long time to change (for example, some take several hours to roll over to the next date. I owned a watch that took from 10pm to 4am for the date to change. Using my Invicta Pro Diver as an example again (which surprised me with it's quickness), it took from 10:20pm-11:55pm for the date to slowly roll over, ending with a final click. Do the same with an Omega (or Rolex, for that matter), and the date will wait until the last possible moment, and then snap firmly to the next date, almost all at once. My Seamaster starts to change just a bit at 11:40pm, and holds slightly out of alignment for 20 minutes, before snapping crisply to the next date at the stroke of midnight. Believe it or not, a quick (preferably even INSTANT) date change is not a random variation of different movements, but is considered a luxury feature of a fine movement. The same applies to the Seamaster GMT and Rolex Explorer/GMT - the hour hand adjusts in precise 1-hour hops, with a crisp and satisfying snap.
E. Hacking second hand -- Better movements stop the second hand when the crown is pulled out for time setting. This allows the time to be synchronized to the second. A cheap movement's second hand will continue to run for as long as it is wound, so there is really absolutely no way to get it set spot-on to the second -- there is also no reason to do so, since they run so erratically and imprecisely that setting to the second is silly (since they'll be as much as a minute off in the first day, anyway). I actually tried to do this with my Invicta by letting it run completely down, and then setting it a minute ahead and then madly winding it as the correct second approached... it didn't work well. In any event, there are low-end movements with hacking second hands, usually 'military' styled or themed watches, but these aren't so very commonly available in mechanical versions these days, although there are lots of vintage ones around (I trust everyone can tell at a glance the difference between a mechanical and quartz movement). In any case, as stated above, this is more of a disqualifier -- it will tell you when a watch is NOT a fine swiss watch, but not when it IS one.
10. If you're a novice, rather than a seasoned, particular collector, insist on an original store invoice, original packaging (inner and outer boxes), manuals, warrantee card holders, movement and warrantee cards (even when the warrantee is no longer valid), shipping stickers and hang tags, and all original items, including bracelet links (know how many to expect). This provides an extra measure of security in your transaction, a better value now, and better resale value in the future, whether a rare collector watch or a common model.
11. A. Even if a watch is genuine, be very careful to scrutinize features and pay attention to all details and accessories, as they can dramatically affect the value of a watch. Sellers will downplay or fail to state (for reasons of ignorance or deception) that a model is the midsize version of the Seamaster, for example, or a 'reduced' size version. Often, they will only say "39mm case men's watch," which means it is a midsize version, which a man may find too small and disappointing, and (more importantly) of far lower value, both purchase and resale. I have several times come within a single click of bidding on (or buying) a watch online for a FANTASTIC deal, only to realize at the last second that the watch was a mid-size (or quartz), which made the price far closer to market value. Or, they'll avoid saying that a legit watch is the swiss quartz version, which is undesireable to most luxury buyers, who look for mechanical chronometers -- remember that 'chronometer' means 'tested,' not 'mechanical.' This is very common on online auction sites; Some sellers don't know better, some do; Quartz and midsize (or heaven-forbid both at once) watches will sell for as little as 60% of the full-size mechanical versions. Another trick: Some sellers will simply say that a watch will 'fit up to a 7.5" wrist, rather than give an accounting of how many of the original links are included in a sale, and thereby tell buyer that the item is incomplete.
B. Don't forget that watch features have a huge effect on price and value. The purchase price of a new genuine bracelet can be $500-$900, and typical used watch prices expect it to be present; A leather strap, even with a genuine clasp or fancy deployant closure is far less valuable and desireable than a solid steel bracelet; The same goes for all bracelet links -- or even extra links; If your new watch doesn't fit your wrist and you need to spend $300 for new links from day one, don't find this out after the fact, negotiate in advance and demand steep price concessions for the absence of any of these -- Example: If I were to sell my 2007 Seamaster on a non-genuine strap for $1300, two links on eBay for $80 each, the box and papers for $150, and the balance of the original bracelet for $350, I'd make a huge profit, because I paid far less.
12. Finally, I will be very brief with this one... correctness and accuracy of the features is very important. There are a number of articles and photos here on this site in the Rogues Gallery, and elsewhere on the site (as well as all over the internet) that can provide lots of technical information to help pick out fakes from photos and in person (assuming the photo is not more genuine than the watch). Feature variations and combinations, measurements of indices, presence of 'stubbies' and such, width of date windows & distance from the edge of the dial, and myriad other very specific observations that get VERY, VERY technical and are the domain of the true collector and expert... which I am not. Add that to the Frankenwatches pieced together and sold as original (with non-standard combinations of features), and the old classics (60s Rolex movement within a refinished case and a 2008 dial, or ruined movement replaced with a cheap imposter in an otherwise genuine watch, or fitted with a cheap aftermarket diamond bezel rather than original manufacturer's versions). This whole category is a wildcard that can cause endless problems for all but the most expert buyer.
13. Finally, familiarity with the genuine article goes a long way... and that's experience that is best had from owning the genuine article. I've been fortunate; My first Omega, a 'Bond' Skeleton-Hand Seamaster (bought for a song from a shady pawn shop when I had no knowledge about the brand) SHOULD HAVE BEEN COUNTERFEIT, BY RIGHTS. I had it coming. It was really foolish. After wearing it (and the Seamaster GMT that followed it) for several years, and scrutinizing every feature and aspect under a magnifying glass, I felt comfortable enough to buy my third from a private party located on craigslist, based on my own evaluation of the watch. Even so, I negotiated hard on the price (finally $1150 for a 2007 Seamaster Auto Chronometer), and it included ALL original documentation, two additional links (he was a mountain of a man), manual, cards, holder, inner/outer boxes, bracelet pin press, MSRP/model# store hang tags, stickers, original invoice from the dealer (not authorized, but otherwise respectable), and a signed bill of sale in the seller's name and noting his home address and the serial numbers (to protect me as a holder-in-due-course... in case for any reason at any time the watch's provenance or true ownership comes into question). Fight for the best deal you can get... but realize that NO deal can ever be so good as to allow you to compromise your self-protection and common sense. Most scammers won't charge retail for a counterfeit... they know that people won't take the risk for the same price they can pay at an authorized dealer. So, they cut the price so low that it entices your greed enough to do something foolish... The old adage, 'You can't cheat an honest man' rings true here.
Remember, even as an educated consumer, the buyer takes all the risk. Even when there are legal recourses, they will be at the buyer's expense and are not likely to be effective or worth the expense. You're taking a risk, so demand that the seller make you comfortable and satisfy your curiosity and need for certain proofs.
Still, the best thing for a novice to do is visit an authorized dealer willing to discount... (ahem... Keith Downing?), where they can be confidant in authenticity, and have a large enough selection to get exactly what they want the first time out... rather than wasting time, energy and money buying whatever's for sale today and trading up later (something else I did).
I hope this is helpful; I invite the rest of the Chronocentric community to comment on my observations, and correct any mis-statements or generalizations... I need instruction as much as anyone else. Apologies for the length (and for exceeding the scope of the original question about the Planet Ocean)... I've been meaning to commit some of these ideas to print for a long time, and seized this opportunity to do so. I've probably left out some obvious ones, so please everyone point them out.
Pies czy kot?: pies Pomógł: 39 razy Wiek: 46 Dołączył: 14 Gru 2010 Posty: 6958 Skąd: Działdowo
#7 Wysłany: 2012-02-05, 09:53
Mysle ze to chyba nie problem sprawdzic gosc jest z Ostrowa jak widze , ty z Warszawy pare kilometrów zegarek za spora kase , jak bedzie pewny swego to da sie sprawdzic , a jak nie to bedzie krecił
Pies czy kot?: pies Pomógł: 1 raz Wiek: 52 Dołączył: 07 Lip 2010 Posty: 3992 Skąd: inąd
#10 Wysłany: 2012-02-05, 11:14
Do Ostrowa prawie 300km. Nie bardzo uśmiecha mi się jechać... Chyba sobie odpuszczę i nie będę licytował. Poczekam aż jakaś ciekawa Omega bliżej się pokaże.
Pies czy kot?: pies Pomógł: 11 razy Dołączył: 22 Gru 2011 Posty: 2195 Skąd: z gór nizinnych
#11 Wysłany: 2012-02-05, 12:54
@Tomirro
Gratuluje rozwagi i opanowania.
Mnie nie dziwi, że ludzie wydają 5k PLN za coś, czego nie widzieli ( np. foty z katalogu a nie oryginału) a potem jest płacz.
Spotykam przykłady zachowań, gdzie klienci wpłacają 30k lub jak rekordzista 100k PLN za towar którego na oczy nie widział ( bo nawet nie był jeszcze wyprodukowany ). Potem dostaje dostawę, której jako laik nawet sprawdzić nie może. Następnie rozpoczynają się wieloletnie sprawy w sądzie . Pazerność stymulowana wizją taniego zakupu zaślepia wiele umysłów.
_________________ "Od dawna już nie nosiłem zegarka. Przeszkadzał mi. Czułem się źle. Miałem wrażenie, że coś pęta mi przegub."
Tarcza i wskazówki są bankowo oryginalne. Koronka raczej też.
Ale wcale nie jest powiedziane, że to nie jest tzw. franken czyli podróba z przeszczepionymi oryginalnymi częściami. Nie stwierdzisz tego po fotkach. Powiem więcej - możesz tego nie poznać nawet na żywo. Chyba tylko inspekcja mechanizmu może dać odpowiedź.
Na deklu brakuje mi charakterystycznego znaczka - "zabezpieczenia" przed kopiowaniem Ale nie wiem czy wszystkie PO to mają.
btw. to na focie to podróba
_________________ Segoy
Ostatnio zmieniony przez Segoy 2012-02-05, 20:11, w całości zmieniany 1 raz
Ten znaczek - glob jest tylko w nowszych wersjach PO, zdaje się przed 2007 nie umieszczali go na deklu.
sylwek [Usunięty]
#15 Wysłany: 2012-02-05, 22:29
Na 5-ej fotce na godzinie 7 takie jakieś "spurchlenia" bezla?? Coś mi tu nie halo się robi w zegarku o takiej wartości. Tyle,że ja żaden ekspert nie jestem.
Nie możesz pisać nowych tematów Nie możesz odpowiadać w tematach Nie możesz zmieniać swoich postów Nie możesz usuwać swoich postów Nie możesz głosować w ankietach
Ale nie wiem czy wszystkie PO to mają.
